McBlabb running his mouth re: RG3

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by CNYSkinFan

ok...your not...others are. Shanny himself has a history of being inflexible, ask Jake Plummer. Shanny Jr. as well.

Your faith is wonderful but this type of faith may not help on Sundays

I think the Shanny's QB issues have been related to personnel-acquisition, not coaching. McNabb was past his prime, Plummer was a head case, Grossman is no better than a back-up, etc.

If the Skins have gotten the scouting part of it right with Griff, we'll be fine.

[Keino]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

I think the Shanny's QB issues have been related to personnel-acquisition, not coaching. McNabb was past his prime, Plummer was a head case, Grossman is no better than a back-up, etc.

If the Skins have gotten the scouting part of it right with Griff, we'll be fine.

I don't see how you can separate the two. He specifically acquired McNabb and then would not adjust the scheme to take advantage of what McNabb does well, even when he (McNabb) was requesting it. That is both a player acquisition and coaching issue. He specifically staked his rep on Rex (and Beck) being able to play despite all empirical evidence to the contrary, but Plummer was a head-case? That must be why he benched him with a 7-4 record for a rookie which decision appeared to cost his team the playoffs. You yourself have acknowledged Shanny's enormous ego (see threads re: Haynesworth, Albert). Why dismiss it here?

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by Keino

I don't see how you can separate the two. He specifically acquired McNabb and then would not adjust the scheme to take advantage of what McNabb does well, even when he (McNabb) was requesting it. That is both a player acquisition and coaching issue. He specifically staked his rep on Rex (and Beck) being able to play despite all empirical evidence to the contrary, but Plummer was a head-case? That must be why he benched him with a 7-4 record for a rookie which decision appeared to cost his team the playoffs. You yourself have acknowledged Shanny's enormous ego (see threads re: Haynesworth, Albert). Why dismiss it here?

On teams with an independent GM and HC we don't blame the GM for how the players are coached. Since he wears two different hats with the team, I analyze Mike Shanahan the GM and Mike Shanahan the coach separately.

Therefore his making mistakes in terms of acquiring talent doesn't tell me he can't coach good players.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

It seems Gruden doesn't know as much about coaching offense as McNabb:

Like McNabb?

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

Like McNabb?

You lost me

[Keino]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

On teams with an independent GM and HC we don't blame the GM for how the players are coached. Since he wears two different hats with the team, I analyze Mike Shanahan the GM and Mike Shanahan the coach separately.

That's true, but we don't have that independence, so why apply a model that doesn't at all fit? We cannot split one guy in half. Presumably when the same guy is wearing both hats, he in his capacity as GM consults with himself as Head Coach and makes decisions on that basis. Separating them makes zero sense in this context. So either Shanny is a lazy talent evaluator or an inflexible coach, or both.

Originally Posted by cal_junior

Therefore his making mistakes in terms of acquiring talent doesn't tell me he can't coach good players.

See above. He is one guy. In each season he got the QB HE WANTED as Coach and as GM.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

You lost me

What you posted:
"Jon Gruden, on conf call, says RG3's fit in Wash will be excellent, points to mobile QBs coached by Shanny in past."

Mcnabb is still a mobile Qb. I think you can figure out the rest.

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by Keino

That's true, but we don't have that independence, so why apply a model that doesn't at all fit? We cannot split one guy in half. Presumably when the same guy is wearing both hats, he in his capacity as GM consults with himself as Head Coach and makes decisions on that basis. Separating them makes zero sense in this context. So either Shanny is a lazy talent evaluator or an inflexible coach, or both.

See above. He is one guy. In each season he got the QB HE WANTED as Coach and as GM.

I just don't think we're going to see eye-to-eye on this. Just because a coach has shortcomings in terms of evaluating players on other teams doesn't tell me he doesn't know what he's doing with his own players. Scouting and coaching do not require the same talents, and there is a reason Shanahan has the reputation he does when it comes to offense.

It certainly makes me more uncomfortable about Shanny's evaluation of RGIII, but I'm not concerned about what will happen if Griff turns out to be the real deal.

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

What you posted:
"Jon Gruden, on conf call, says RG3's fit in Wash will be excellent, points to mobile QBs coached by Shanny in past."

Mcnabb is still a mobile Qb. I think you can figure out the rest.

Gotcha.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

I just don't think we're going to see eye-to-eye on this. Just because a coach has shortcomings in terms of evaluating players on other teams doesn't tell me he doesn't know what he's doing with his own players. Scouting and coaching do not require the same talents, and there is a reason Shanahan has the reputation he does when it comes to offense.

It certainly makes me more uncomfortable about Shanny's evaluation of RGIII, but I'm not concerned about what will happen if Griff turns out to be the real deal.

Shanny does have a good track record to picking out offensive talent...save the Qb position. Shanny, ever since Kubiak left his side, has badly struggled to develop any talent on the offensive side of the ball.

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

Shanny does have a good track record to picking out offensive talent...save the Qb position. Shanny, ever since Kubiak left his side, has badly struggled to develop any talent on the offensive side of the ball.

No argument from me here. Perhaps Kub was the guy who knew how to pick the QBs.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

No argument from me here. Perhaps Kub was the guy who knew how to pick the QBs.

His track record in Houston would certain suggest so.

[Keino]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

I just don't think we're going to see eye-to-eye on this. Just because a coach has shortcomings in terms of evaluating players on other teams doesn't tell me he doesn't know what he's doing with his own players. Scouting and coaching do not require the same talents, and there is a reason Shanahan has the reputation he does when it comes to offense.

It certainly makes me more uncomfortable about Shanny's evaluation of RGIII, but I'm not concerned about what will happen if Griff turns out to be the real deal.

I can accept that we won't see eye to eye, but you addressed exactly nothing I said. The coach and GM are one and the same. In situations where they are not, we evaluate how the player in question fits the system the coach runs. We blame the GM if the player appears to be a square peg for a circle hole and we blame the coach when the player fits, but the coach can't get the best out of him (or we blame the player). In the Redskins case, they are the same person. When Shanny decides to acquire a player, he does so in both capacities so in this case the distinction in the positions is irrelevant.

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by Keino

I can accept that we won't see eye to eye, but you addressed exactly nothing I said. The coach and GM are one and the same. In situations where they are not, we evaluate how the player in question fits the system the coach runs. We blame the GM if the player appears to be a square peg for a circle hole and we blame the coach when the player fits, but the coach can't get the best out of him (or we blame the player). In the Redskins case, they are the same person. When Shanny decides to acquire a player, he does so in both capacities so in this case the distinction in the positions is irrelevant.

I don't think Shanahan's issue has been acquiring guys who don't fit his system, it has been acquiring guys who aren't all that good. If he gets the talent part right I'm not worried.

[Keino]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

I don't think Shanahan's issue has been acquiring guys who don't fit his system, it has been acquiring guys who aren't all that good. If he gets the talent part right I'm not worried.

Yes, and McNabb and I are saying he lets his ego drive those decisions, thinking so highly of his coaching ability that he sells the notion he can turn crap into tasty brownies. See Reputation staked on a player that was already on his roster, not acquired from another team who went through an "evaluation period". That is the exact type of decision that demonstrates that you cannot separate the talent evaluator from the coach in this instance. Coaches, the good ones anyways, adjust their scheme to take advantage of what their players (good and crappy) do well. It always comes back to that.

So to recap.....he acquires crappy players. Convinces himself that he can coach them to good and then refuses to make the necessary adjustments to put said players in position to be successful within his scheme. That sir, goes well beyond being merely a poor talent evaluator.