Who is to blame? Pilate, Us, Jews, God, Liberals, Conservatives.....

higgybaby · #1 03-03-2004, 12:11 PM

I originally posted this in response to another thread. I think this question is bigger and deserves a thread of its own.

Nobody is arguing that Pontius Pilate was a hero, nobody is arguing that Pontius Pilate is innocent, he could have outrightly freed Jesus!

I am about to make a statement that I am sure will be met with much fanfare....There is no single, earthly source to blame for killing Jesus. As has been stated by most Christians on this site. The Jewish religious leaders hated Jesus, so they arrested Him and delivered Him to the Roman official, Pontius Pilate, for execution. Pilate could have released Jesus, but he too, shares a responsibility because he succombed to the influence of yet a third party who contributed to the death of Jesus, the crowd in Jerusalem who kept shouting "Crucify Him!"(not to mention the political pressure that was coming down from Caeser himself to squash all of the uprisings that were becoming a nuisance)
Again, as most of the Christians have posted, it was sinners like me and you who killed Jesus. "While we were yet sinners," the Apostle Paul tells us, "Christ died for us"(Romans 5:8) No one can point a finger at any other person or group for the death of Jesus. Our sins were the reason Jesus had to be crucified.

I want to take this a step even further, ultimately, it was God the Father who killed His Son, Jesus. The Bible clearly says that Jesus was "delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God"(Acts 2:23) Jesus did not die by mistake. Although our sins made Jesus' death necessary, God brought it to pass. So in God's sending Jesus to recieve His wrath so others could recieve eternal life, sinners are saved from God, by God.

How arrogant, to believe that a single politician(Pontius Pilate) or a few religious leaders(The Jewish religious leaders) or a mob crowd(the chanting "Crucify Him!") (even as powerful as these three groups are) could possibly be responsible for the execution of a master plan to kill the Son of God, No. Only God, through the allowance of an unlikely chain of events. Through His Will alone could manipulate these things to happen, while at the same time allowing man to have his own free will.

Repeat: my take on the matter:

I want to take this a step even further, ultimately, it was God the Father who killed His Son, Jesus.

jporterweb · #2 03-03-2004, 01:06 PM

If you wanna get down to it. Every human is responsible because it's our sins that required him to give his life.

BigCountry · #3 03-03-2004, 01:08 PM

Gee I knew we had some power in the film industry but that's taking it a little too far

Yudolindo · #4 03-03-2004, 03:54 PM

In historical opinion: Pilate killed Jesus, period.
In religious opinion: all of mankind killed Jesus.
If you are Mel Gibson or an eastern European bigot: the Jews killed Jesus.
So it all depends on your perspective.

higgybaby · #5 03-03-2004, 09:18 PM

Mel Gibson does not place the blame on the jews shoulders in the movie, He does a good job of showing pilate's guilt the guilt of the Jewish religious leaddership as well as the crowds .

jporterweb · #6 03-03-2004, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yudolindo
If you are Mel Gibson or an eastern European bigot: the Jews killed Jesus.

I think someone watches to much of the news.

jporterweb · #7 03-03-2004, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yudolindo
In historical opinion: Pilate killed Jesus, period.

Could you do me a favor? Show me where history says that Pilate told his guards to go arrest Jesus and kill him because he wanted to and not because the people he was over rioted for it.

Yudolindo · #8 03-03-2004, 10:15 PM

I am getting sick of how “political air it out,” has become “religious air it out.” Religion and politics mix poorly.

MrWiggles · #9 03-03-2004, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jporterweb
Show me where history says that Pilate told his guards to go arrest Jesus and kill him because he wanted to and not because the people he was over rioted for it.

This questions is asking why Pilate ordered his guards to arrest and kill Jesus. Was it because of his own selfish interest (he wanted to) or because the people he ruled over rioted for it? I can honestly say I have no idea. I'm not privy to Pilate's thought process so I can't say. However, this question does seem to indicate that whatever the reason, Pilate ordered his guards to arrest and kill Jesus.

MrWiggles · #10 03-03-2004, 11:03 PM

This post is off the thread topic, so let me know if I should move it or delete it all together (if I can even do that).

higgybaby's post raised two questions in my mind. For those of you that are religious, particularly those of you that are Christian, I would appreciate you informing me of your views. This is not an attempt to attack your beliefs. I simply am unclear on a couple of points and could use some education.

Quote:

Originally posted by higgybaby

Again, as most of the Christians have posted, it was sinners like me and you who killed Jesus. "While we were yet sinners," the Apostle Paul tells us, "Christ died for us"(Romans 5:8) No one can point a finger at any other person or group for the death of Jesus. Our sins were the reason Jesus had to be crucified.

1) How could my sins be part of the reason that Jesus died? I wasn't born yet, therefore I had committed no sin at the time Jesus died. How could events that were yet to happen be part of the reason for his death?

Quote:

Originally posted by higgybaby
Through His Will alone could manipulate these things to happen, while at the same time allowing man to have his own free will.

2) How can god both manipulate events to happen AND allow man to have free will? If the lord is orchestrating some master plan doesn't that negate the notion of man having free will? On the other hand, if man does truly have free will doesn't that necessitate that no one, including god, manipulates our actions?

Thanks, and sorry if this is a distraction.

Yudolindo · #11 03-03-2004, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWiggles

Thanks, and sorry if this is a distraction.

No, you are not the problem. The problem is that this is a political forum that has turned ecumenical, and I for one am getting sick of it. Not only is it not the purpose of the forum, but also it is intensely frustrating to argue with literalists. People can inject reason in politics, but apparently are not willing to have rational, two-way discussions about religion, which is fine but there needs to be a separate forum for such discussions.

MrWiggles · #12 03-03-2004, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yudolindo
No, you are not the problem. The problem is that this is a political forum that has turned ecumenical, and I for one am getting sick of it. Not only is it not the purpose of the forum, but also it is intensely frustrating to argue with literalists. People can inject reason in politics, but apparently are not willing to have rational, two-way discussions about religion, which is fine but there needs to be a separate forum for such discussions.

I think a separate forum for religious topics would be fun and informative (and occasionally frustrating). We could call it the Hail Mary. However, I don't think that would end the blending of religious topics on the political board. There are plenty of people in the country that feel that policy decisions should reflect their faith. As frustrating as I personally find that, I think it is a bad idea to separate them from the political discussion just because my definition of 'political' doesn't agree with their definition.

Yudolindo · #13 03-04-2004, 12:03 AM

Threads titled, for example: “Who is to blame? Pilate, Us, Jews, God, Liberals, Conservatives.....” are not political and I doubt they could ever be construed as such; they are theological or perhaps historic. I am not saying that we should bar any religiously informed opinion, far from it; I just think there should be a separate place for people who wish to discuss overtly religious topics.

jporterweb · #14 03-04-2004, 08:20 AM

You know, you don't have to read a topic you don't want to Yudolindo? This is the Political forum yes, but it is also a forum for things that are as very off topic as religion. It's not something that would be standardly discussed in the Off Topic forum. I was once told that I don't have to read any topic I don't agree with. I suggest you use the same restraint.

SkinsKY · #15 03-04-2004, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yudolindo
I am getting sick of how “political air it out,” has become “religious air it out.” Religion and politics mix poorly.

They do mix poorly, but both sides regularly mix them together anyway in some form or another. It doesn't hurt that a controversial film with both religious and political implications is near the forefront of recent events.